Dvader said:Sgahshshbagshsvshg!!!!!!!
That ending!!!!!!!!! Most epic final boss ever!!!!! What a game!!!!
Quiet now....wait for me to finish.
They took a shallow combat system and replaced it with something slower, clunkier, and even more shallow, but the trees are better looking and there is a child. 10/10 #VideoGamesAreArt
I dunno. The trees don't even look that good.
You know what? It JUST dawned on me why this God of War works so well... People get tired of always-angry, single-note characters, that indiscriminately rage against everything and everyone around them. It’s about time Kratos grew up and showed some maturity.
Foolz said:I dunno. The trees don't even look that good.
Console trees ultimately never look that good. But scrubs finna scrub lad.
Gagan said:They took a shallow combat system and replaced it with something slower, clunkier, and even more shallow, but the trees are better looking and there is a child. 10/10 #VideoGamesAreArt
Good god you are an awful judge of games.
Gagan said:Console trees ultimately never look that good. But scrubs finna scrub lad.
30FPS trees. :X
Dvader said:Good god you are an awful judge of games.
Nah slick that's just what having actual standards looks like. Try it some time.
Foolz said:30FPS trees. :X
Pfft less than that, this is console gaming we are talking about Tomas.
Gagan said:Nah slick that's just what having actual standards looks like. Try it some time.
Nope you are an awful judge of games, believe me I've seen plenty of examples.
Please tell me what third person hack and slash action games outside the DMC/NG/bayonetta club does action better than this?
Dvader said:Nope you are an awful judge of games, believe me I've seen plenty of examples.
Please tell me what third person hack and slash action games outside the DMC/NG/bayonetta club does action better than this?
We had one last year slick Nioh.
It doesn't stack up favorably to a bunch of action games, much less its own predecessor in terms of fluidity. The zoomed in camera inherently makes things clunkier and gives you so many blind spots. So you can't rely as much on enemy tells n sound effects (especially given all the noise in the game), so to offset it they had to put some dumb ass pointer around the dude that tells you when a goon is coming from behind you. Making it honestly in your best interest to have an enemy behind you, because as soon as that shit turns red, just fucking dodge n wail away. There ability to break lock on is more disorienting than useful in comparison to other action games of its ilk. In contrast to the older games (which lets not front, were DMC for children) having a fixed camera at least meant you always had a clean n consistent view, and could rely more on proper tells instead of a glorifying "HIT THE DODGE BUTTON FAM" marker that lights up glowing red just to make sure you get the point.
Added bonus the moves you unlock while useful for crowd control are on fucking cool down. So you really can't link too many of them in all that many expressive ways. Cool downs by their nature are more rigid of a system and force you to wait before you can use the move again. "bu bu then they would be unbalanced for how strong they are if they weren't on cool down"....yeah welcome to game design 101. In good action games those moves are either weaker so you can use them more often moment to moment n make a more versatile move set or the start up requires some effort from the player and they bcome an option later into one of the more elaborate combo paths. The older games had a magic meter, Bayonetta has a magic meter for instance, and in their case there is usually a method to fill up your magic meter by targeting specific enemies n what not. In Dad of War? Yeah let's just drop that shit, that might be too overwhelming of a concept.
The lack of jumping gimps aerial moves, it takes away a dodge ability, it takes away another option you would have to close the gap. Again, jumping might be too much of an overwhelming concept for the player according to our lord n saviors at Santa Monica. Just let them hit heavy, n mash away for the simplest fucking juggle option anyone could come up with.
So as far as player expression is concerned? You don't even need the best combat engines to shit on it. Revengeance is more expressive, The older God of Wars are more expressive, Otogi, God Hand, The Wonderful 101 take your pick as far as 3D Beat em ups. Fuck even Nier 2 the battle system itself allows for shit like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRS1GvHCgFk
Because in the case of Nier 2's its mechanics weren't its problems. It's difficulty n tuning were, that and the rpg bullshit bogging the game down. Which actually still applies to Dad of Bore. Because even in comparison to From Software's games it wouldn't stack up favorably as far as captilaizing on its depth. Dark Souls has less moves overall, but those games are built around their enemy variety n combat spaces. The depth is extrapolated from the different scenarios the game can present from oepn fields, archways, high, low turrain, environmental hazards. The works. God of War plays more in line with how 3d beat-em ups tend to work which is a closed off combat area, where you fight some dudes and move to the next combat area. Problem it's not as expressive as other 3D Beat em ups to get away with that shit. That and why in bluest of blue hells did the enemy variety regress from the older games?
How is it that I've seen 7 different shades of some big ogrel that either will just lumber around trying to stomp n punch me, or lumber around trying to stomp with some pillar or some shit. Dad of War barely has anything going beyond the main mooks besides a revenant, ogre, travelers, n were wolves, meanwhile in the first 2 hours of God of War 3 you fight chimera, centaurs, minotaurs, madusas, cerberus, giant animated satutues. And that game kept going.
And then what are you even left with when the combat is mediocre? The puzzle solving? That shit isn't even good in the old games, much less now when it's even more paste swilling friendly. The platforming? Yeah man thank god we have Uncharted's brand of brain dead traversal systems where all the player does is hold up, and is never in any real danger or challenged in any meaningful way.
Oh did I mention the game does the whole "this enemy is only weak to this one type of weapon you have" full DmC (ninja theory) style, which weirdly enough still deeper than this game by at least sticking to a base framework tied to Devil May Cry.
What does the rpg bullshit add? Stuff to make the higher difficulty a joke, because eventually your armor can just eat way more than enough damage to let you get away with shit. A dumb ass upgrade system tied around tripping 25 dudes, and then 50 duddes. Or my personal favorite, something that is mind numblingly stupid when even actual action games do it (See Revengeance, DmC, God Hand), where you don't actually unlock a new move, you're unlocking a damage buff for one of your old moves. Which doesn't change gameplay, it just means you can do more damage. Hooray!!
These aren't difficult concepts to grasp if you've actually played real action games and actually value depth, and not just the greatest hits of metacritic and if the game is pretty or not. As far as more technical n expressive combat systems? That list is basically any quality japanese beat-em up made post Devil May Cry n Onimusha. Because they weren't strictly relying on press the awesome button for something cool to happen on screen. They demanded more of the player.
You prefer this game to those? Mozel tov. But you would be imperically incorrect in assuming the game is anywhere near as technical or as expressive as the games mentioned. In a pretty measurable way you'd be incorrect in pretending there isn't a gap in terms of depth between those games, or even action rpg type games like Dark Souls n Bloodborne, versus what you get in God of War. If you don't value depth n challenge in a game? That's fine. I do however.
That is all.
SupremeAC said:You know, without agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on the topic at hand, I'd just like to say that I don't really care for expressing myself. I played both Bayonetta's and honestly, I just kept repeating the same handfull of moves I managed to remember. I switched between 2 different weapons and that's it. Somehow, I even mqnaged to still enjoy myself. Not as much as with W101 though.
That is all.
This is war! Pick a side!
SupremeAC said:You know, without agreeing or disagreeing with anyone on the topic at hand, I'd just like to say that I don't really care for expressing myself. I played both Bayonetta's and honestly, I just kept repeating the same handfull of moves I managed to remember. I switched between 2 different weapons and that's it. Somehow, I even mqnaged to still enjoy myself. Not as much as with W101 though.
That is all.
If that's how you play a game that's fine, the game accomdates lower level play. Which is what a normal playthrough for the first playthrough happens to be, lower level play. It comes back to what you fundamentally value. I however, lean towards depth, and that's still about meaningful decisions available to a player in a given possibility space. In a more mathematical sense take the total number of game states and subtract the redundant ones. Any idiot can make it through Bayonetta mashing Y, Y, Y, Y, n Y with some timely dodges in between on normal. But you're not getting platinum trophies that way, and the higher up the difficulty settings you go it just isnt' viable. It's where the square square triangle meme comes from for God of War. Yeah you can do that on normal. Crank that difficulty up higher, and it'll be in your best interest to know more than just BnB combo. And you're not going to just tank hits n be fine, you're going to need to be better at positioning, defense, and when you finally counter you need to optimize.
It is also a misnomer that these games are as deep as the "quantity of combos".....Bayonetta's depth isn't how many dial combos it has, those by their nature are impractical n stupid. No one is gonna fucking remember that shit. It's about all the interlocking command moves it does have, and cancels n more importantly dodge offset which allows you to get chain your wicked weaves (these are those tail end of the combo attacks where she launches giant hair fists n shit) together to do some fun shit, all with different properties to how they launch n stagger enemies. It's why for any enthusiast of the genre, DMC4 is looked upon as the king in terms of pure combat. Dante's moveset has nothing to do with mashing a string of buttons n calling it a day. It's more about command moves that you need to link yourself, thus creating custom combos.
Archangel3371 said:This is war! Pick a side!
No! I'm Switserland. I've got choclates and bring me all your illegal money.
Gagan said:If that's how you play a game that's fine, the game accomdates lower level play. Which is what a normal playthrough for the first playthrough happens to be, lower level play. It comes back to what you fundamentally value. I however, lean towards depth, and that's still about meaningful decisions available to a player in a given possibility space. In a more mathematical sense take the total number of game states and subtract the redundant ones. Any idiot can make it through Bayonetta mashing Y, Y, Y, Y, n Y with some timely dodges in between on normal. But you're not getting platinum trophies that way, and the higher up the difficulty settings you go it just isnt' viable. It's where the square square triangle meme comes from for God of War. Yeah you can do that on normal. Crank that difficulty up higher, and it'll be in your best interest to know more than just BnB combo. And you're not going to just tank hits n be fine, you're going to need to be better at positioning, defense, and when you finally counter you need to optimize.
It is also a misnomer that these games are as deep as the "quantity of combos".....Bayonetta's depth isn't how many dial combos it has, those by their nature are impractical n stupid. No one is gonna fucking remember that shit. It's about all the interlocking command moves it does have, and cancels n more importantly dodge offset which allows you to get chain your wicked weaves (these are those tail end of the combo attacks where she launches giant hair fists n shit) together to do some fun shit, all with different properties to how they launch n stagger enemies. It's why for any enthusiast of the genre, DMC4 is looked upon as the king in terms of pure combat. Dante's moveset has nothing to do with mashing a string of buttons n calling it a day. It's more about command moves that you need to link yourself, thus creating custom combos.
I never said that the depth comes from the amount of combo's possible. I guess that with Bayonetta, it is left up to the player to explore the depths over multiple playthroughts, and to be honnest, I do not have the time or the willpower to do that. When you compare that to something like W101, where the game teaches you to use every weapon, also requires you to do so to defeat specific enemies, the game really becomes much more accessible for those of us who have limited gaming time.
SupremeAC said:I never said that the depth comes from the amount of combo's possible. I guess that with Bayonetta, it is left up to the player to explore the depths over multiple playthroughts, and to be honnest, I do not have the time or the willpower to do that. When you compare that to something like W101, where the game teaches you to use every weapon, also requires you to do so to defeat specific enemies, the game really becomes much more accessible for those of us who have limited gaming time.
I didn't say you did, I am saying that the way depth is discussed in games and these type of games is often misrepresented. And has created conversations about how many combos there are, when dial combos are redundant in the grand scheme of things. And that's fine that you don't have the time or the will power. But a player not putting in the effort wouldn't make a game less shallow/more deep. Feels me?
Gagan said:I didn't say you did, I am saying that the way depth is discussed in games and these type of games is often misrepresented. And has created conversations about how many combos there are, when dial combos are redundant in the grand scheme of things. And that's fine that you don't have the time or the will power. But a player not putting in the effort wouldn't make a game less shallow/more deep. Feels me?
I agree. I just wanted to say that I didn't say that you said I did.
SupremeAC said:I agree. I just wanted to say that I didn't say that you said I did.
Fair but I'm just confirming that I didn't say that you said that I said that you did that thing.
Sgahshshbagshsvshg!!!!!!!
That ending!!!!!!!!! Most epic final boss ever!!!!! What a game!!!!