Yodariquo said:Is Ivy from Soul Calibur 4 "exaggerated to the point of being comical"?
Ummm... absolutely.
Do you think, because of the Voldo character, that the creators of Soul Calibur are into S&M?
Yodariquo said:The thing is, the "PC gone too far" complaints preceded the additional comments from Schreier. The dismissal was not that the condemnation was too immature, it was actually the opposite -- that it was taking things too seriously. Albeit I could be misunderstanding the objections.
Schreier, a supposed "professional" writer, was soooo mortified by the design of the Sorceress alone (completely ignoring the rest of the art design of the game), that he resorted to basically "trolling" George Kamitani. He lost his shit in a PUBLIC setting because of ONE thing he considered not up to HIS moral standard. Every last still of the game shows TONS of art, history and cultural references that highlight a rich artistic background for Kamitani... that in one instant one punk with a public forum and a soapbox discredited. He took ONE thing way too seriously then devolved into name calling. Who is Schreier to do that? An art critic? The ONE voice when it comes to deciding what's right and wrong, appropriate or inappropriate in the industry? Nope. Just a punk that lost his shit then tried to cover it up by saying... "but, but I think he just called me gay!"
Seriously, go to the Art Eater link in the topic and see if it doesn't change you mind at least a little bit.
phantom_leo said:Ummm... absolutely.
Do you think, because of the Voldo character, that the creators of Soul Calibur are into S&M?
Then we completely disagree. I don't believe for a second that Ivy is meant to be satire.
phantom_leo said:Racism is wrong. Boobies are not.
Sexism is wrong. Face paint is not. That logic doesn't work, does it?
phantom_leo said:Trying to remain coherent but the beers and BBQ have me drunk, full and tired.
This whole "controversy" brings out a few of my pet-peeves about modern day society (in the US):
- SEX SELLS... **but you're a pervert if you buy it!**
- People would rather see a man shoot another man than kiss him.
- The Land of the Free... **as long as your idea of freedom falls in line with everyone else's...**
These I agree with. The problem with the first one in this context though is creating an environment suggesting that women are only good for sex.
Mind you my intent wasn't to create a debate between the two of us, but merely address my feelings on the situation as a whole, and it was prompted largely by some of your posts.
---
Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileBlackface has a specific intent. Do you really think the Sorceress looks the way she does ONLY to be a sexist insult to women?
I just copied the article about Dragon's Crown from Art Eater to my topic, sans videos, of course. Read it, please.
You know me. You know who I am and what I do. If anyone knows about Sex Selling, the implications of that and the absurdity of it all, about how people publically admonish this but secretly admire it... I think I have a good enough handle on it all to have that opinion without it ALL being about women!
Yodariquo said:Mind you my intent wasn't to create a debate between the two of us, but merely address my feelings on the situation as a whole, and it was prompted largely by some of your posts.
Ironically enough, I am not a Master Debator. There are some things in gaming I do feel strongly about and I've touched upon a few of them in here and I Thank You for bringing up the subject, regardless of what your intentions may or may not have been...
**Gawd... I've missed you!**
**Sniffle!**
phantom_leo said:Blackface has a specific intent. Do you really think the Sorceress looks the way she does ONLY to be a sexist insult to women?
There are no perfect analogies, and there was never an intent to equate the two regardless, only the logic being applied.
I already had read about the art references as posted.
I think I need to elaborate on something. I don't actually tend to deal a lot in personal opinion and furthering a personal cause. My concern often comes down to what I deem to be poorly formed arguments. This does not require my agreement with the sentiment on the opposing side, but merely that those levying the claims are in error. The foremost opinion I have on Dragon's Crown is that it's by VanillaWare and I thusly have little interest in playing it.
I do have an issue, however, with the logical premise that claiming an "oversexualized character is indicative of an immature industry" is equatable to being "anti-boob" which is how I read it. I use racism as an easy analogue to understand, if not perfectly transferable -- in this vein, suggesting that racist depictions of Hispanics in games is a bad thing would not be suggesting that we don't want racial diversity. This among other things I've previously detailed.
But I should learn to not need to have the last word.
---
Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileThe way the information was presented, no one will ever be able to tell if Schreier saw teh boobs, made his troll like statement, got negative feedback and THEN covered his ass by constructing his argument that he was acting in defense of women, or if he sincerely felt as if the boobs were sexist to begin with and that's what caused him to rant. Either way, it's caused ripples throughout all forums and gaming sites that could have far reaching implications. At the very least, it sparked a lot of intelligent (and not so intelligent) discussions, so for me, it's a win, win. I get to play the game and air my opinions, as well as seeing how other people feel about art, sexism, character design, etc, in games.
What I guess I am trying to say is: There is no winning or losing these arguments. There's no good or bad either. There's so many topics being thrown around in reaction to this, it's ALL interesting.
1. Unhealthy portrayals of women exist pervasively in videogames (and media as a whole)
2. Perpetuation of unhealthy portrayals of women is a bad thing
3. The sorceress character is a perpetuation of unhealthy portrayals
4. Ergo, the sorceress character is a bad thing
---
Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileWhat happens if you exchange the word 'Sexy' with 'Unhealthy' ?
Go back and look at ALL Sorceresses in ALL Fantasy Literature, Movies, TV Shows, etc...
This isn't a Gaming Issue, and it's called FANTASY for a reason.
If the players can't tell the difference, THAT'S the real problem!
And the only reason it's a problem is that it is pervasive. Who the hell's saying that it's only this game and nothing else?
---
Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileYou didn't ask a question!
How is the Sorceress an unhealthy portrayal and who is she unhealthy for?
phantom_leo said:How is the Sorceress an unhealthy portrayal and who is she unhealthy for?
Women designed for men. This means unrealistic body types (this is not simply stylistic) and lack of practical relevance outside of sex appeal. By contrast, yes, I agree the archer in this game is much better.
Here's an example of something incredibly common that shows the difference in portrayal of men and women:
---
Tell me to get back to rewriting this site so it's not horrible on mobileAre you rescuing the Sorceress? Is she helpless? Is she not a Heroine of the game? Yes, she has big boobs, but she can kick serious ass too.
I think I am more offended by Princess Peach as a character than the Sorceress...
Racism is wrong. Boobies are not.